When you lower the car, the camber will go out and you need a camber kit to fix it. However, I find it is not necessary to correct the camber in most cases. Most people think they need a camber kit because of a tire-wear concern. The reality is, TOE ANGLE kills tires WAY faster than camber ever will.
Sound like a bold statement? Conventional wisdom is that when you lower the car you need a camber kit if you don’t wanna wear out the tires fast. Well, there is another adjustment/spec here than nobody has mentioned. Caster is another key.
When you lower a double wishbone car like the 88-00 Civics, 90-01 Integras, Accords, TSX, etc, the camber angle always increases in a negative direction: The wheels tilt inwards. It is what makes the car handle better in turns than strut cars. It is a natural effect of cycling a double-wishbone suspension.
Lowering many cars also increases the toe angle, which is to say it points the tires outward. They kinda fight for direction where the car wants to go.
But also, realize that all cars have some positive caster. The means that when you turn the wheel, the axis of rotation is not 90 degrees. You may notice it more exaggerated on BMWs and Benzes. The best way to view the angle is to turn the wheel all the way to one side, and get out and look at your car. Notice the wheel is turned, but also kind flopped over? Have a friend with a S500 (if you have one) do donuts while you watch outside. The wheels really flop over on those cars!
Think of it like pushing a wheel barrow. The angle from the axle to the handle is like caster. Pick up a wheel barrow and stand it veritcal on the tire with the handles straight in the air. Now imagine pushing it and trying to turn it. Haha…it just fell on you! Now imagine pushing and turning it normally. Much easier. Much more stable. And when you trun it, the tire is not actually turning. It flops over on it’s side and leans! That is how your car turns too! That is how motorcylcles turn and well.
Caster is great for high speed stability. That is why all cars have some dialed in. Without it, the car would be super twitchy and hard to control at speed. It’s why autobahn burners have more caster than your typical Japanese car.
The problem is, when you lower the car and toe angle is thrown out, the wheels are actually riding on the inside edges of the tire as they grind away pulling the car in different directions! This is in addition to the increased camber effect! With an improper alignment the car will WASTE tires in a matter of months (or weeks if you drive like me).
The trick to lowering the car and having the tires last is to get a good 4-wheel alignment to fix the toe angle. I have had over a dozen hondas, all lowered, and most lowered past 2″. I have never had a camber kit on ANY of my cars. The ONLY car that I had a problem with tires with was my 94 accord which I had never aligned. Go figure.
amber will tend to wear tires out somewhat quicker than stock, but generally speaking, with a good toe alignment, the increased wear will not be cumbersome or even really significant. The added camber actually makes the car handle a little better. Also, a little camber in conjuntion with the caster will wear the tires out almost evenly! So why get rid of it?
Here are some images to illustrate what I mean.
In this image, you can see where the inside and outside of the tire are. The red dots are there to help you identify the wear-indicators inside the tire grooves. When the tires wear down to these wear-bars, you know it is time to replace the tires. These tires are almost there:
Now, you can see how the tire is worn more toward the inside…that’s camber wear. This customer was driving on this tire, with the car lowered moderately with a good alignment. He has not maximized tire wear, but clearly he has not greatly suffered either. No camber kit was installed.
In the next image, we have a tire which was lowered aggressively, and the car was NOT aligned.
Look how aggressively the tire has worn on the inside edge. The cords are even showing. This wear is caused by TOE angle. The direction of wear here is dramatically different than a camber-worn tire. This type of wear will kill a brand new set of tires in a matter of months. Mistakenly, people will lower their cars, not align them, get this wear, and blame it on camber. The timeline continues when the customer buys a camber kit, installs it, and the wear goes away. Must have been the camber kit, right? It was the toe, people. Also note, this is a front tire.
With a drop under 1.75″, you should not need to even worry about it, because a drop of that much will not even throw the car out of factory camber specs! But that toe will be in the red every time!
3 responses to “Understanding Camber & Toe”
[…] information about the effects and causes of camber wear, please visit one of our previous posts, here. If you are interested in installing a camber kit, please visit this link for help. The example car […]
[…] I found this, might be helpful! Understanding Camber & Toe When you lower the car, the camber will go out and you need a camber kit to fix it. However, I find it is not necessary to correct the camber in most cases. Most people think they need a camber kit because of a tire-wear concern. The reality is, TOE ANGLE kills tires WAY faster than camber ever will. Sound like a bold statement? Conventional wisdom is that when you lower the car you need a camber kit if you don’t wanna wear out the tires fast. Well, there is another adjustment/spec here than nobody has mentioned. Caster is another key. When you lower a double wishbone car like the 88-00 Civics, 90-01 Integras, Accords, TSX, etc, the camber angle always increases in a negative direction: The wheels tilt inwards. It is what makes the car handle better in turns than strut cars. It is a natural effect of cycling a double-wishbone suspension. Lowering many cars also increases the toe angle, which is to say it points the tires outward. They kinda fight for direction where the car wants to go. But also, realize that all cars have some positive caster. The means that when you turn the wheel, the axis of rotation is not 90 degrees. You may notice it more exaggerated on BMWs and Benzes. The best way to view the angle is to turn the wheel all the way to one side, and get out and look at your car. Notice the wheel is turned, but also kind flopped over? Have a friend with a S500 (if you have one) do donuts while you watch outside. The wheels really flop over on those cars! Think of it like pushing a wheel barrow. The angle from the axle to the handle is like caster. Pick up a wheel barrow and stand it veritcal on the tire with the handles straight in the air. Now imagine pushing it and trying to turn it. Haha…it just fell on you! Now imagine pushing and turning it normally. Much easier. Much more stable. And when you trun it, the tire is not actually turning. It flops over on it’s side and leans! That is how your car turns too! That is how motorcylcles turn and well. Caster is great for high speed stability. That is why all cars have some dialed in. Without it, the car would be super twitchy and hard to control at speed. It’s why autobahn burners have more caster than your typical Japanese car. The problem is, when you lower the car and toe angle is thrown out, the wheels are actually riding on the inside edges of the tire as they grind away pulling the car in different directions! This is in addition to the increased camber effect! With an improper alignment the car will WASTE tires in a matter of months (or weeks if you drive like me). The trick to lowering the car and having the tires last is to get a good 4-wheel alignment to fix the toe angle. I have had over a dozen hondas, all lowered, and most lowered past 2″. I have never had a camber kit on ANY of my cars. The ONLY car that I had a problem with tires with was my 94 accord which I had never aligned. Go figure. amber will tend to wear tires out somewhat quicker than stock, but generally speaking, with a good toe alignment, the increased wear will not be cumbersome or even really significant. The added camber actually makes the car handle a little better. Also, a little camber in conjuntion with the caster will wear the tires out almost evenly! So why get rid of it? Here are some images to illustrate what I mean. In this image, you can see where the inside and outside of the tire are. The red dots are there to help you identify the wear-indicators inside the tire grooves. When the tires wear down to these wear-bars, you know it is time to replace the tires. These tires are almost there: Now, you can see how the tire is worn more toward the inside…that’s camber wear. This customer was driving on this tire, with the car lowered moderately with a good alignment. He has not maximized tire wear, but clearly he has not greatly suffered either. No camber kit was installed. In the next image, we have a tire which was lowered aggressively, and the car was NOT aligned. Look how aggressively the tire has worn on the inside edge. The cords are even showing. This wear is caused by TOE angle. The direction of wear here is dramatically different than a camber-worn tire. This type of wear will kill a brand new set of tires in a matter of months. Mistakenly, people will lower their cars, not align them, get this wear, and blame it on camber. The timeline continues when the customer buys a camber kit, installs it, and the wear goes away. Must have been the camber kit, right? It was the toe, people. Also note, this is a front tire. With a drop under 1.75″, you should not need to even worry about it, because a drop of that much will not even throw the car out of factory camber specs! But that toe will be in the red every time! and heres the link Honda Civic Blog
[…] being pigeon toed. here is some reading for you on it, its for a civic, but its all the same… Understanding Camber & Toe __________________ My Picture […]